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[The420Freedom]

\Let us take a trip down memory lane...
In the days before this plague, upkeep, it was entirely possible, hell, it was common practice. To maintain a fleet of 1 million hawks, just because you COULD. Now, i have this to show you...Be sure to remove all children from the room...

Total Hourly Income

   Subtracting Fleet Upkeep :      -25,604
   Total Metal income :      -92

   Subtracting Fleet Upkeep :      -16,166
   Total Energy income :       -529

This is truly a horrific site. I maintain but a small fleet, i have not even surpassed 100k total units. And my units cannot afford to survive. My population exceeds 2 million...Previously, a pop of 2mil meant you were most likely packin' a fleet of 2 mil...
This is a grave and sad loss for Colony-Wars...
The game is colony-WARS, not colony-skirmish's, or colony-disputes....The game has devolved into the equivalent of a playground brawl, from its former glory as a prizefighter cagematch.
So Please, We Need Your Help.

Save Colony-Wars...
 
Add-On ~ I have no idea how exactly, just post here if you agree, if enough of us vocalize our opinions, they'll eventually have to listen, it's the same principal as politics...

[nick241070]

i think that the solution is :

more pop more upkeep...and fixed....:

ex:

pop to 2 million upkeep 2%
pop from 2-4 million upkeep 5%
pop from 4-6 million upkeep 10%
pop from 6-10 million upkeep 30%
10-15 50%
15-30 80%
30-60 90%

[The420Freedom]

Here is an example for you Nick..

My pop on the test server is 2.2 million, a reasonable amount for a player less than a week old, now, i have scraped together a fleet of LESS than 100,000 units, assorted hawks, puns, scav's... Now, i already demonstrated previously, how i now have negative income. Since i am a NEW* player, it is assumed that all players around me have been here longer and gotten even higher fleets, now how am i supposed to catch up, if i cannot afford to advance past my tiny 100k armada.

*Since the big thing about upkeep is how it supposedly HELPS the new players, i have to point out flaws.
~Upkeep instantly constricts the development of new fleets for the little guys that just want some defense or an attack force of their own to start gaining rocks at a faster rate.


Post Merge: February 14, 2010, 04:26:50 PM

i think that the solution is :

more pop more upkeep...and fixed....:

ex:

pop to 2 million upkeep 2%
pop from 2-4 million upkeep 5%
pop from 4-6 million upkeep 10%
pop from 6-10 million upkeep 30%
10-15 50%
15-30 80%
30-60 90%

Yes, yes double post but this caught my eye.

You think that a player with 2 million pop should restrict their fleet to 5% of the income. That right there eliminates on of the most fundamental, intelligent and just plain, fun way to advance in this game. STEALING rocks, if you cannot have a fleet above, what, 10,000 measly units, then how is a player with 1-9mil ever supposed to compete with the others.

[Eldrad]

Here is an example for you Nick..

My pop on the test server is 2.2 million, a reasonable amount for a player less than a week old, now, i have scraped together a fleet of LESS than 100,000 units, assorted hawks, puns, scav's... Now, i already demonstrated previously, how i now have negative income. Since i am a NEW* player, it is assumed that all players around me have been here longer and gotten even higher fleets, now how am i supposed to catch up, if i cannot afford to advance past my tiny 100k armada.

if by 'players around you' you mean around the same score as you, then the will have hit the same upkeep limit as you, and thus have the same 100K ships. (or less if they are trying to save - in which case you should be able to take their rocks)

To take them out you have a few options.
Colaborate to attack with another player (of the same size) to double their defensive fleet - taking rocks, increasing the size of fleet which you can afford to upkeep. all good.

Dock and save. Send some of your ships to your alliance docks(where there is no upkeep), save cash until you can afford to both build and upkeep a fleet of twice the size...

Now assuming the 'players around you' do have bigger fleets, they are not in play, their are hidden in their alliance docks - this takes 10 ticks to get out, and thus they can quickly retaliate against you if you steal their rocks (well within a day, quick in that they don't have to wait and save up to hit you - but the end reslut is you trading rocks with people around your own size - ie more fighting.

The alternative (no upkeep) would be them having all their ships in play (possibly defending) and you having to wait untli you had saved enough to build a biger fleet, then you taking rocks, and them idling their fleet and keeping their ships alive t. retaliate against you, but if they are the same size they have the same income, so their fleets are always bigger than yours. (reducing the opportunity for you to attack them in the first place.)

[The420Freedom]

I was referring to all players around me in my galaxy, not my pop count, i'm a fan of close attacks to prevent long eta's..But, a few points..

"To take them out you have a few options.
Colaborate to attack with another player"
unfortunately, there's a general... problem of inactivity, throughout all galaxies. One's i've played in anyways.

But that's just a small part of a greater problem. I'll admit that i can see the lure to a different type of strategic play when this upkeep comes into play, such as "shuttling fleets through the docks", but, it was an entirely different game before, without upkeep, leaving massive fleets at home to guard 24/7 or on the opposite note, teaming up with fellow alliance members to target players who liked to leave their entire fleet vulnerable.

I think upkeep and the way resources are obtained from attacks ended the gameplay that allowed for 50 hawk raids or for sneak attacks on massive targets. That was another major loss. If even those 2 features alone could be disabled for an old-school version of CW. It would be a huge improvement

Upkeep is a different style for colony-wars to explore, but the idea of a classic colony-wars server where many of the new features are removed, would possibly bring back old players. I know it's excessive to ask for yet another server...But it would settle anti-upkeep players.

[Hunter49r]

My pop on the test server is 2.2 million, a reasonable amount for a player less than a week old, now, i have scraped together a fleet of LESS than 100,000 units, assorted hawks, puns, scav's... Now, i already demonstrated previously, how i now have negative income. Since i am a NEW* player, it is assumed that all players around me have been here longer and gotten even higher fleets, now how am i supposed to catch up, if i cannot afford to advance past my tiny 100k armada.

this argument makes no sense. You think it would be easier to catch up if there was no upkeep? the players you want to hit would have a lot more resources saved up then they do now, because they wouldn't be having to pay for their ships. And as a result, they would have a huge head start on you.

[Eldrad]

My pop on the test server is 2.2 million, a reasonable amount for a player less than a week old, now, i have scraped together a fleet of LESS than 100,000 units, assorted hawks, puns, scav's... Now, i already demonstrated previously, how i now have negative income. Since i am a NEW* player, it is assumed that all players around me have been here longer and gotten even higher fleets, now how am i supposed to catch up, if i cannot afford to advance past my tiny 100k armada.

this argument makes no sense. You think it would be easier to catch up if there was no upkeep? the players you want to hit would have a lot more resources saved up then they do now, because they wouldn't be having to pay for their ships. And as a result, they would have a huge head start on you.

exactly, and in any case players with bigger populations ALWAYS had bigger fleets, so i don't know why you are complaining that now players who are bigger than you have much bigger fleets...

Ok, you do have less income to chase them, but they have bigger upkeep to pay OR smaller fleets, either way making it easier for you to catch up. (unless ou go over 100% upkeep - in which case you can't afford to build new ships)

[The420Freedom]

Ok, pretty much, its an argument behind how many zero's are behind my fleet numbers. New players have a advantage of they are not always noticed right off the bat, therefore they can stealth amass fleets. The players on top, yes they would have larger fleets but hopefully the other players do their job in keeping the top players Down. I'm just not a fan of the constrained feeling of only being able to have so many ships for your population. That's what it boils down to, i have "x" population so i can only have "y" units or less...Previously, players could sit somewhat in the background, just underneath the top scores, and build a fleet while those on top fought amongst themselves.
It also seems that upkeep promotes making your own alliance(because not too many people will entrust their entire fleet to the alliance docks, unless they are the only ones with access. Maybe that's just me.

[Hunter49r]

Ok, pretty much, its an argument behind how many zero's are behind my fleet numbers. New players have a advantage of they are not always noticed right off the bat, therefore they can stealth amass fleets. The players on top, yes they would have larger fleets but hopefully the other players do their job in keeping the top players Down. I'm just not a fan of the constrained feeling of only being able to have so many ships for your population. That's what it boils down to, i have "x" population so i can only have "y" units or less...Previously, players could sit somewhat in the background, just underneath the top scores, and build a fleet while those on top fought amongst themselves.
It also seems that upkeep promotes making your own alliance(because not too many people will entrust their entire fleet to the alliance docks, unless they are the only ones with access. Maybe that's just me.

1) I've had upkeep numbers at above 1000% [4 0's] before. There is no limit to the amount of ships you can have, as long as you plan accordingly. I've also had fleets go disorganized, but was able to catch them.

2) When I was in charge of MERC's I think there were 5-6 players with dock access and another 3-4 with bank access. I know that some other alliances are over protective of their ships, but not all of them. If you know the players that you are working with, then you should have no trouble being free with your ships.
Even when I 'betrayed' RR, I returned the ships. I can't really think of many ship thieves, because once you do, no one is going to trust you with dock control again.

[The420Freedom]

off-topic, but how is it betraying if you returned the ships?

Anyways, since apparently i have to defend that comment.. Okay to clarify part 1
~exactly, and in any case players with bigger populations ALWAYS had bigger fleets, so i don't know why you are complaining that now players who are bigger than you have much bigger fleets...
@eldrad = yes, okay first off at that pop. its established that buying rocks is pretty much too expensive, realistically..right? okay going from that, its logical that the only other way to improve pop is by building fleets and attacking players. Now previously smaller players could really take a chunk out of the big guys either by being sneaky,
Or... By doing what upkeep prevents you from doing and amassing a fleet much larger than would be expected.

Now, if the idea of paying for attacks is so set in why not change the general idea...instead of paying all the time while ships are at home, traveling..everywhere..
 You only get charged M/E when you launch your ships, I.E. a re-supply armaments, loaded fuel, pilot costs, etc. that charges a set amount every time you launch your ships...  and a defender's fee, that charges the player every tick your units defend your planet...or possibly every tick that they are in status "defending" if you leave them like that...Have it be a Total Units x "x" = Defense cost..

[Eldrad]

you can sit slowly amassing resources (and you hope the other players are keeping the big players from have small fleets, and thus being able to amass even more resources)

and then build 10 times your upkeep limit (and easily over-power your immediate neighbours)

Now i admit having stealth funds to build suddenly is a great defensive tactic if you are active enough, and never building does leave you without effective defence - so in a way it is harder to build up quietly - however in the past you have been able to amass ships (however slowly) and eventually hit someone, this may be harder in that you have to be careful not to just click build max (because you will not be able to upkeep your max) - and i admit it is less satisfying logging in to see you savings increase - when in the past you would log in and build max, and feel good about all those newtly ordered ships.

but having a massive fleet and it being impossible for your enemy to attack you (because of the bash limits) is kinda stupid in itself, i prefer forcing you to hide where your ships are (either in savings or alliance docks) it also mean getting your entire fleet wiped out isn't the end of the world (if you have stored resources, or hidden ships to use to replace them - though it is still a big deal for anyone)

EDIT: as for paying at the time you are attacking, i dislike this a lot.
If there comes a time where you wish to attack but canw't because (you may have organiesed the right number of players) you didn't organise them to have the right amount of fuel - then you're sitting for a few ticks waiting for the reources and some of your allies get bosed and leave. I think that would be really bad.

[The420Freedom]

well, like i tried to say earlier lol but that part was ignored, i can see the strategic lure of upkeep being part of the game-play, its just that i preferred the game the way you were mentioning in your previous post. I can only hope that the idea of CW Classic Server, perhaps replacing test, if you can only manage 3... If not then myself, and the many other players who dislike upkeep, although i seem to be the only one voicing the con's of upkeep side. lol


Edit* I have to make this an edit so it doesn't show up as a double posters must die...lol

Ok, well if that much time is spent on organizing an attack and the players forgot to notice if they had the money for supplies to launch an attack, and it allows more freedom with your fleet growth, but still limits on attacks, since you have to pay to attack someone
however, it cant be some extraordinarily large fee, that bankrupts a player every time they attack, however it is realistic that times of war lower the income of a country, society, group, army, etc.

[Eldrad]

i'm not interested in setting up a new server at the present time.

I am planning on some changes to how the rounds run (so they automatically restart, output scores, and stuff like that) if i can get to the point where it is easy to setup 'CW classic' and maintaint it, then i will; but that will not be too soon - busy rewriting the current code to support ajax

[The420Freedom]

well you made that way too simple now what can we argue about...

[RattleSnake]

upkeep is only natural as it adds some reality to the game. you wont go on a long journey overseas without needing to eat, shower, etc...which costs money. HOWEVER: it should be kept reasonable, and not matching our current real screwed up economy...